Church and Main

Hello, everyone. On this episode of Church and Main, we will look at the 10 best episodes of 2023.

Now, it's actually not the 10 best, it's the 10 most memorable.

Yeah, we're going to go with that. The 10 most memorable episodes of 2023. That's coming up.

Music.

Hello and welcome to Church and Main, the podcast at the intersection of faith

and modern life. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. Happy Holidays!

Or rating, and that helps others find the podcast.

So for this episode, as I said earlier, I'm going to be reflecting on some of

the interviews that I did in 2023 and also looking ahead to 2024.

It so turns out that the episodes I have listed turn out to be 10.

I won't call them the 10 best. They're actually kind of the 10 most memorable.

Um, they were one, there are a lot of good interviews from, uh,

2023, but these are the 10 that kind of stuck out, uh, for a lot of different reasons.

And so I'm not going to be showing clips, but I will put the links to the episodes

in the, um, uh, episode description.

So, uh, do go there to find the links and, um, I would encourage you to listen

to them. Um, I think that they are good.

Um, yeah.

I had hoped to do this earlier, but, you know, being a pastor makes it very hard.

But also, it's also been kind of a challenging year.

I'm kind of actually looking forward to 2023 ending and hoping for a better

2024, as many of you might be aware of.

Um, in the summer, uh, in July of this year, my mother, um, uh, had a stroke and, um,

kind of they say that the first year of stroke recovery is a challenge and that's been the case.

Case, um, mom was doing well and it's still kind of doing okay, but, um,

had some falls in, in the, in the fall, um, in autumn and had to go back into

the hospital and get some rehab and is out.

Um, and, um, now though is dealing with not stroke related, but sciatica,

but having the stroke doesn't help.

Um, so that's not great.

Um, but I do know that my mom has always been resilient.

Um, she's been resilient through this whole thing. Um, she's been,

um, resilient through all of the ups and downs and we got to celebrate her turning

90, um, on the 15th of this month.

So, um, I'm hoping that it is 2024 is a better year for her.

Um, I'm hoping that, you know, things will kind of stabilize.

I hope it's a better year for myself and my husband, my husband,

Daniel, um, who has been a saint and an incredible helper through all of this.

Um, just hope that things kind of.

Stabilize. So, um, I guess this is kind of one of those things that I do ask

for prayers and I hope that that 2024 will be a bit of a better year for all of us.

So, um, as I said earlier, you know, I did want to try to do a,

the recorded episode earlier.

Um, you know, things got a little little busy with taking care of mom and getting

the church ready during Advent.

Um, and I was able to actually to write out this episode. Um,

so there's a link to it if you'd like to read it.

Um, but I decided I was going to try to do this, um, just to get it posted before

the end of the year for people to look at and, and look back at 2023.

So these are the episodes. They are not in any kind of order.

No, the first one here is not number 10 or number one.

These are just the 10 that are the most memorable.

So the first one I want to share was an episode I did in February of this year.

I interviewed Ben Crosby.

Ben is an Episcopal priest. He is studying at at McGill University in Montreal.

And I happened to stumble upon a substack, his substack.

And what he said was just kind of, I don't know, it was fascinating. It was refreshing.

He was saying, I think, what some of us have been feeling for a long time and

a lot of the frustrations that we deal with in mainline Protestantism.

He shared about how it seems so common for leaders in mainline Protestant denominations

to basically be in denial of the ongoing decline in their midst.

We get a lot of happy talk about how, quote unquote, how God is doing a new thing.

Never mind that, you know, churches are closing left and right and our denominations

are shrinking steadily.

And so his interview, his substat and his interview were words of assurance

because it kind of helped me to realize I was not going crazy.

I think there are a lot of people out there these days that really do nothing

but make fun of the mainline and its decline.

Or they kind of just shake their head about the sad state of this tradition.

But Ben's essay and then his interview show that there are some people that really do care.

They really do want to see something change.

And I was so glad to have the chance to talk to him.

And I hope to do so again. I know that he is very busy in his work and his schooling.

But I hope to have him back. And I was thankful for his voice,

that he's willing to kind of speak up and say what needs to be said.

Um, at a time when so many others really don't want to face facts.

Um, these next few, these next four actually are kind of all related.

Um, 2023, as I said, is, you know, it's, it's another year of mainline Protestant

denominations shrinking. drinking.

Um, but among these four people that I interviewed that, what they reminded

me is that there is still vibrancy in this tradition. There is still hope.

So, one of the first that I talked to was back in March, and I chatted with Dawn Darwin Weeks.

She is an ordained pastor in the Christian Church Disciples of Christ,

which is my denomination.

She is one of the pastors, along with her husband, of Connection Christian Church in Odessa, Texas.

Connection actually started as First Christian Odessa, but they sold their building,

they moved, and they also got a new name.

And Dawn talked about the journey, which was summed up in her book,

which came out earlier this year, called Breakthrough.

And after really this past year hearing about so many churches in our denomination

closing, it was good to hear the story of a church that is being renewed.

And it's being renewed by listening to the Spirit. So, definitely give a listen

to that episode with Don Darwin Weeks.

And then in October, I had the opportunity to chat with Graham Bocot.

He is a priest in the Anglican Church of Canada.

His story is fascinating. I read his story.

Actually, his story and Ben Crosby's are somewhat similar because I think I

read something about him or related to him either in Ben's substack,

which then led me to the Anglican Journal,

which is the kind of the magazine for the Anglican Church of Canada talking about Graham's story.

And his story was that he was able to help bring back a closed congregation,

a congregation that had been, as they in kind of Anglican speak,

was deconsecrated back in 2008.

And through conversations in a town in rural Ontario.

Um, he talks about and tells a story about how he, working with a group of people,

a group of people he describes as six miserable Anglicans, they were able to

revive this congregation and

not just revive it to make it a thriving congregation that has an impact,

that has made an impact on its rural Ontario community.

So, Graham is showing that churches actually can get second acts if they're

willing to put their trust in God and to see where God is going to lead.

The next episode is one where, it's funny, I did an interview this week that

will be coming out probably next week.

It's the first interview for the new year.

Where the person that I was interviewing was talking about the fact,

who was also a Disciples of Christ pastor,

that a lot of the churches in the area where he lives were started by lay people.

They weren't started by pastors.

And I think that that was true where I live here, and I think that that has

been true in a lot of cases, that lay people started churches.

Now, these days, it's a lot more common to see churches that are started by pastors.

But even though that is now more the norm these days, there are still examples

of laity out there that are starting new communities of faith,

and I happen to know one of those people.

I had an interview back in, I believe it was in September, with Laura Coddington.

She is a Methodist lay minister of St.

Michael Community Church in St. Michael, Minnesota.

St. Michael is an exurb, maybe about 25 miles from, 25, 30 miles from Minneapolis.

Minneapolis, and she tells about how she and her husband Brent have started

this community and have become a visible presence in the St. Michael community.

And it's just a wonderful reminder that you don't need to be a pastor,

you don't need to have necessarily an MDiv to plant a church.

What you do need, really, is a heart for mission.

And so, yeah, listen to, especially if you're a lay person, but you've always

had maybe a fascination of helping to plant a church, listen to that interview.

I think that you will enjoy it.

So the last interview that I did for 2023 was with Paul Moore.

He is a colleague. I've known him now for over 15 years.

He is a Presbyterian pastor. He is a pastor that is passionate about local church ministry.

He was able to kind of turn around a church in southeastern Minnesota.

Um, and he has also now been a pastor for almost 15 years of a new church plant

of the Presbyterian Church USA in, um, Blaine, Minnesota,

which is another suburb of the Twin Cities.

Um in his interview we talked about his home congregation in worthington minnesota

which is in the southwestern part of minnesota and how um that church has shrunk

in size it's actually selling their building and moving into a smaller space,

but that started him to think a lot about the fact that how many churches in

the proletarian church are closing and why it doesn't seem like anything is

happening within that denomination to kind of stem to decline.

But he's been doing some thinking about it.

One of the things that he started to do in his own congregation is to,

what he says, grow young.

After a lot of kind of a year of discernment, his congregation is hiring a youth

and family minister as close to full-time as possible,

because they want to make a commitment really to grow the next generation of Christians.

I think, you know, all of these pastors that I've just talked about,

they all have an interest and feel a passion for kind of the local church,

and that the church still matters.

I sometimes worry that, especially in mainline churches, we are kind of starting

to think that churches don't matter.

I mean, I've even heard sometimes the word colonialism being used with churches.

And I think that the gathered community still matters in some way.

Um, and so it, there is something important to hear how, uh,

people are still trying to find ways of creating,

um, visible communities of faith,

um, in this day and age and see that there is still a role for that.

So, um, the next one here is probably an issue that is obviously pretty personal for me. Um,

As an African-American, I still think that the issue of race is still something that's important.

I'm not someone that focuses solely on race. I'm not someone that really holds

on tightly to race in ways I think sometimes are not great.

But I still think it's an important issue to talk about. But maybe if you've

noticed on this podcast, I haven't really talked about race a whole lot.

And I think the problem is that I haven't because, well, I've been hesitant.

Maybe partially, it could be cowardice.

I think part of it is because the dominant way that we look at things,

especially in mainline Protestantism, is through anti-racism.

And that way of looking at racism or a race doesn't always, I don't always agree with it,

but on the other side of that, I don't feel comfortable with those that try

to downplay or even ignore race.

I think race is something that's still an important issue,

but I feel like the way that we talk about it now is so different and sometimes

feels like Like it's caught up in identity, but not in a shared humanity.

I think that's what I want to get at. So I think I was thankful that I got the

chance to talk to George Yancey about his approach.

He is an African-American sociologist. And we talked about what he believes

is a third approach, mutual accountability. ability.

Now we don't live in an era like Jim Crow. Um, I'm not one of these people that

thinks that we have not made any progress.

I can tell you we've made progress. Um.

My dad, back 70 years ago, when he would travel between Michigan and his home

in Louisiana, he couldn't stay in a hotel.

That is not the case for me. I can stay in a hotel.

But there are still issues. We still have to deal with them. The question is how.

We have come a long way as a nation when it comes to race, but of course we still have ways to go.

And I think that George Yancey's conversation is a good one.

Um he's also written a book about

it which of course right now is uh fails me

but um i do hope um i do hope that you give it a listen i think if you have

not heard this third approach it might be one that you may want to consider

i really hope that in 2024 i can bring on some Some other thinkers that aren't basically just,

you know, kind of in either just the anti-racist or the color,

quote unquote, colorblind camp.

But people who really kind of are like are like Georgiancy that want to kind

of think about this a little bit deeper or at least in ways that are not kind of the dominant ways.

So please give this episode a listen. Um, I think that, um, it's one that I

think we need to, to listen to.

So this next story is one that is important is also with such a comedy of errors.

Um, this one was with, uh, Seth Perry.

Seth Perry is, um, uh, a Lutheran pastor, uh,

north of the twin cities in a small town and over kind of as we weren't coming

into lent he decided to do a series of videos um.

Where he basically was called Giving Up the Stigma. And the stigma here was mental illness.

Seth is someone who has bipolar disorder,

and he wanted to, quote-unquote, come out and be honest about how he deals with mental illness.

And in his interview, he shared his story, story, um, which was a pretty,

um, riveting story, important one to hear.

I think one of the things that I remember the most from that is that he has

noticed how pastor, how churches can understand pastors who struggle with addiction.

Um, but when it comes to pastors dealing with mental illness,

that's kind of a whole different kettle of fish.

And so he wanted to be honest about that. And I And I think being honest has

led others to be honest about their own issues with mental illness.

The comedy of error is part of this is that I was doing this.

I had to basically do this interview three times.

I had recording issues. There was a I was using a recording service that was just not that good.

And basically, um, I either lost part of the interview or I lost, um, part of the sound.

So, um, basically the interview kind of had to, I, you know,

tried to save it and it just was not, not salvageable.

And so it took about three times to get this done.

Uh, but Seth was incredibly patient. Um, and, um, I found this was a great interview,

um, even though it, it was, it was such a bitch to get it, um,

excuse my French to get it out there.

But, um, I think that if you are someone that is dealing with a mental illness,

um, especially if you're clergy,

um, this is something, one that you should listen to because it shows that you

aren't alone, that there are other people who are dealing with this.

Um, and I think Seth is a great example that, um,

you can live, can live up to your call, um, and be honest about what,

who you are and what you're dealing with.

Um, so, uh, please give that, that episode a good listen.

So I have a few more here. This one was probably the one I was most excited

about. Um, the reason I was most excited about was because, um.

Book that this is based off of basically blew my mind.

Um, last year I started reading, um, church in the crisis of decline by Andrew Root.

Um, there are not, you know, there are lots of books out there that are talking

about church and church decline and church congregational renewal,

and they're all interesting and fascinating.

And I read, started reading this one, um, last year.

Um i think i started reading it um

partially on a on a trip

uh to norway and i mean it basically blew my mind um it made me look at our

the faith differently it made me look at how we look at faith and in our culture

differently um it's so just kind of,

of, well, as I said, blew my mind.

I just had to try to get Andrew on the show.

Um, I have interviewed his wife, uh, Cara, uh, who I, who I've known for a long time.

And, um, I was happy we finally got to do so. Um, we had a great conversation on, on that book.

Um, and I would like to have him back. I hope to have him back next year.

Um, he is actually also just a delightful person to talk to.

Not that people who I've interviewed are terrible people, but you just feel at ease.

Especially for someone that is, some people would say, very well known as a theologian out there.

He's just kind of down to earth. And I really enjoyed the episode.

And I think especially if people are kind of struggling, their church is struggling

and wondering what to do next, I would definitely read Church in the Crisis Decline.

This is actually one in a series of books. There are actually, I think, six books.

The most recent one came out this fall.

But do listen to this episode because I think that if you... And then read the book.

And when you do that, I don't think that you will look at that congregational

renewal the same way again.

So the last two episodes that I want to share, both deal with October 7th and

the massacre, and basically the massacre of Israelis by Hamas terrorists.

So the first one is that I, kind of the background, is that I wanted to talk

to a rabbi, really, about...

What happened on October 7th. And so I talked to David Watson,

who is a Methodist pastor and theologian, and he shared the name Brad Hirschfeld.

And so I got to talk to Rabbi Brad in late October.

So this was just a few weeks after the massacre.

And what was fascinating about this was how how he talked about it in the context of hope.

And that's a hard thing to see if you've heard some of the stories of what happened on October 7th.

But there is hope.

That's not ignoring what happened. And he definitely did not ignore what happened.

But I think that there was something meaningful about this episode and seeing

where hope could come from.

And I think, as I said, I've written, I think Rabbi Brad just kind of exuded joy.

And I think he really embodied what joy is about. That, you know,

happiness is kind of that state when things are going right.

Joy is something a little bit deeper and it's not the same as happiness.

Joy is not necessarily that you're happy, but there's something deeper there.

And I think he showed that and how you can have that sense of joy and hope even

in the midst of such evil.

And in fact, that you need to have that in the midst of such evil,

that Hamas did not steal his hope.

And that's important to hear.

So I hope, um, listen to the episode with Rabbi Brad and then related to that

episode was one that I did with, um,

in November with Todd, uh, Stavrakos. He is a Presbyterian pastor.

Um, he has been for years, um, a part of, um, Presbyterians for Middle East peace.

And we talked really about, this was kind of and I even shared it in the episode,

an experience I had at the General Assembly of the Christian Church Disciples of Christ,

we have a lot of different non-binding resolutions that come up and one of them

that came up was one that called for Israel to be deemed an apartheid state and I,

disagreed with that. I don't.

I guess I'm kind of an old-fashioned, I believe in a two-state solution.

I don't think that Israel is innocent.

I don't think that the Palestinians are innocent.

I think both have a right to live and to have places that they can call home.

And so I think calling Israel an apartheid state just didn't ring,

just didn't smell right to me.

It felt wrong in many ways.

And I was curious and I noticed that that was kind of the line of thinking of

a lot of people within mainline Protestant churches that was very much came

down on one side. And that one side, of course, was the Palestinian side.

Instead of seeing both sides, I know, both sides-ism, but really to see the

validity of both the arguments on both sides, that it wasn't all one person

good and all one person bad.

And so I was just wondering why

is that the case and so I tried to

chat it with Todd and we talked about really

the history especially of mainline churches but especially the Presbyterian

Church USA and their kind of bias against Israel and how that what the effects

of that are especially with Jews the Jewish community here in America I think

it's a timely episode and.

And when did I think that we need to kind of talk about? Because I don't think that it's helpful.

And I think we might be doing a lot of harm with Jewish communities.

And that we have to find ways of honoring and being with and listening to Palestinians,

especially Palestinian Christians, but Palestinians in general.

But not at the expense that we don't respect Jews and Israelis.

And that's all, you know, not easy, but I think that that's important.

So those are kind of the 10 episodes.

And again, they are not, you know, this is not a countdown of the 10 best episodes

of 2023. It's just kind of the 10 that are the most memorable.

And there were a lot of other great episodes that I enjoyed,

but these were the ones that were most memorable.

So what comes in 2024?

I still want to do, I'm hopefully going to want to do more episodes on pockets

of growth within mainline Protestant churches and denominations.

I definitely because it's it's an election year um want to do something on religion

and the election and how do christians respond especially in light of some of the things that um,

donald trump is saying as he is running for president yet again um.

I want to do an episode at some point in 2024 on the working class and the church.

I just have not found anyone that I could talk to about it.

But I think that it's an important issue because it actually does relate to

the whole Donald Trump issue.

I think how the political parties have kind of ignored the working class feeds

into kind of Donald Trump's rise. And I know that's controversial.

Some people don't believe that, but I think it does have a role.

I'm also interested in talking about Canada's medical assistance in dying law

or MAID law that allows for assisted death.

Ben Crosby actually has talked about this issue, having lived in Canada,

and has some interesting things about how the church really has kind of not spoken up on it.

And so what should the church be saying about this?

And what is the church in Canada saying or not saying?

It's kind of an important issue. I think, you know, we have here in the United States laws, um,

like, uh, basically assisted suicide laws, mostly on, I think on the West coast,

I think Washington state, Oregon,

uh, California, but they're not used, um, in the way and they're set up very

differently, um, than Canada's law, uh, Canada's.

If I could be so blunt, doesn't it have as many safeguards?

And so there have been a lot more people using that law.

They're set to actually expand the law early next year for people with mental illness.

So you have people with post-traumatic stress disorder that are hoping to be able to have this done.

So it just raises a lot of questions. When is this?

Is there any time that, you know, assisted suicide or euthanasia can be used?

If so, when? What are the limits?

What does that mean for Christians? I think that these are questions that we

need to be asking because we're seeing it across the border. murder.

Um, I don't know if that's going to change anything here, but it's something

that we need to look about to talk about.

Um, I'd also at some point like to talk more with someone about abortion,

but beyond just kind of the, not just the pro pro-choice pro-life kind of argument that we

usually have, but maybe a little bit deeper about some of the grays.

Um, I think that there was an an interesting episode of the Dispatch podcast,

if you have listened to it, where Sarah Isger, who is one of the hosts,

had a very impassioned conversation.

She is pro-life, but talking about

some of the things we're having with Texas law and the recent Texas case with

a woman that probably needed to have an abortion because of the child had a

disease that basically was going to be fatal and could have some issues for her.

And so there was just a lot of impassioned conversation about,

you know, how is this going to hurt and affect women?

And you don't have to be a super pro-choice person to have some concerns about

this. And I would love to kind of talk about this from a faith standpoint.

So those are some of the things that I'd like to talk about,

uh, comment come 2024. Um.

That's 2024. Um, as we kind of close out the year, I do want to say thanks to

everyone who has listened to the podcast, who's shared an episode with someone.

Um, and I do also want to say thank you, um, to those who have donated.

Um, there are a few of you have actually, um, sent a donation.

I have put things out there, but I don't have, you know, push it really hard.

At least I haven't this year.

And, um, I've just been busy this year to try to do that.

Um, but I do want to just say, thank you for those that donate. It means a lot. It helps.

Um, and it just is cool to have all these people around who have supported,

um, this crazy dream of mine of starting a podcast.

Um, especially how I started it, which is usual for me, at least to kind of

start things that, and to see what sticks.

So thank you. And I definitely will look forward to seeing you all in 2024.

That is it for this episode of Church in Maine.

Again, all of the links for the episode, for the 10 most memorable episodes

of 2023 will be in the show notes.

So please, you can find them there and then just listen to those episodes and

feel free to share them with as many people as you can.

Just remember to rate and review this episode on your favorite podcast app so

that others can find the podcast and consider donating so that we can continue

to produce more episodes.

And again, that's it for this episode of Church in Maine, the last one in 2023.

I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.

Again, thank you so much for listening throughout all of 2023.

I look forward to seeing you in 2024.

Take care, Godspeed, and I'll see you very soon.

Music.